Why Influencer = Performance Marketing in 2025 (Beginners Guide to Affiliate Marketing)

0:00 | if you had to Define affiliate marketing for them in like the simplest terms what

0:06 | is that definition the way I like to Define it is just a partnership structure it is the way you are compensating a a partner of yours what

0:13 | are some of the things that you notice big Brands like missing out on I would say the big Brands they’re making the

0:19 | same mistakes as as the smaller Brands they’re just losing a lot more money by doing so are there certain like

0:25 | percentage points incentive structures that you do find to be like the ones that like attract creators the best what

0:31 | would you say is like the biggest misconception that people have about

0:38 | Affiliates normally on this show we discuss paid social advertising in ad

0:43 | creative but I wanted to change it up a little bit today to talk about a growth strategy that is honestly a little new

0:50 | to me but is super tough of mine for the brands that I’m working with now heading into 2025 so I brought with me here

0:58 | today Noah Tucker of social snowball to discuss with me influencer marketing and

1:03 | affiliate marketing so Noah thank you so much for coming all the way from Mexico number one here at La so thank you thank

1:10 | you for having me this has been a long time coming so I’m very excited yeah of course so for people who don’t know you

1:16 | and don’t know social snowball give a quick intro on who you are what is social snowball and really why you

1:23 | started doing this yeah so my name is Noah and I’m the founder of social snowball and social snowball is

1:28 | essentially an affiliate a platform for e-commerce brands that helps Brands partner with creators and influencers as

1:34 | Affiliates so you know if you think historically I think a lot of brands have viewed Creator and influencer

1:39 | Partnerships as more of a top of funnel awareness Channel and you know obviously you live in the paid ads world you know

1:45 | better than me that paid ads are becoming more expensive and less reliable and brands are looking for alternative acquisition channels and his

1:51 | and you know influencers can be a great acquisition Channel but that you have to have the right incentive structure for them to drive revenue and you need to be

1:57 | able to track that and to reward them for doing so and that’s essentially what social snowball helps brands do so we really help Brands turn their creator

2:04 | and influencer Partnerships into an actual acquisition Channel rather than just you know paying an influencer in exchange for deliverables or just like

2:11 | awareness yeah and I really can’t tell you how many times I’ve worked with a brand or I’ve talked with a brand that

2:17 | was like influencer marketing doesn’t work for me and I that’s why I’m so excited to dive into it with you today

2:23 | because I feel like you know something I heard you say on a podcast recently was that now influencers is becoming more

2:30 | like a performance Channel and I think that’s really that’s going to be really interesting to my audience um because I

2:36 | think that it is a really untapped growth strategy that most people are probably just doing wrong so what I’d

2:44 | like to do is since most of my subscribers are more in the paid ads world if you had to Define affiliate

2:52 | marketing for them in like the simplest terms what is that definition it’s it’s a good question I think there’s so many

2:58 | different Buzz buzzwords around this there’s influencer Creator Ambassador affiliate Word of Mouth referral like

3:04 | what does it all mean um but to answer your question affiliate the way I like to Define it is just a partnership

3:09 | structure it is the way you are compensating a a partner of yours and the compensation is based on performance

3:16 | it’s based on driving a conversion and receiving a commission that’s that’s what an affiliate is and that could be a

3:21 | publisher a media buyer it could be a Creator and influencer of course but affiliate is yeah it’s really just like

3:28 | a partnership structure compens ation structure where you reward a third party whether that’s an individual or a

3:33 | business for driving a conversion that’s that’s how you are compensating them it’s not based on how many clicks they drove it’s not based on how many

3:39 | Impressions they drove it is based on how many purchases they drove for let’s say your brand in this case yeah because

3:45 | I think that a lot of times when people look at influencer marketing right now they’re like oh it’s you’re just buying

3:51 | them for their audience and not necessarily them actually generating Revenue which I think is the really cool

3:58 | thing about what you guys do is you’re turning it into more hey like you’re going to get an Roi out of this and how

4:04 | to like build those structures which is what I’m really excited to go into today now what would you say is like the

4:11 | biggest misconception that people have about Affiliates I think the word

4:17 | affiliate has a really negative connotation overall because because like we were just discussing I was like well

4:23 | there’s one side of affiliate marketing which I think is like kind of scammy and weird and then there’s the other side

4:29 | which is like ltk and shot like those like it’s like those two different worlds very much very much yeah I mean

4:36 | the word affiliate has a million different meanings and if depending on who is saying the word affiliate or who you’re talking to they could think it

4:42 | mean you know means one of a million things um I remember I went to affiliate World in Dubai thinking that it was

4:47 | going to be super relevant for the types of you know Affiliates that we held Brands partner with and it was like the most scammy like you know like neutr

4:55 | dating we’re hearing it here right I mean it it just wasn’t it just wasn’t what I was expecting at all and then and

5:02 | that was really eye opening this was years ago but it really showed me that the word affiliate can mean a lot of things and that the connotation that the

5:08 | word has it makes sense why it has that because historically affiliate was a little bit more of like this gray hat

5:14 | sketchy area and it still could be right there I’m sure there’s plenty of that happening but then there’s all these

5:19 | other different types of Affiliates and especially in the DDC world it’s very you know it’s has white hat as any other

5:24 | channel it’s just Performance Marketing and so yeah it’s it’s changed a lot but I think that’s why it has a negative

5:31 | connotation is because it has meant so many different things it used to mean something very different than what it means today and now that creators and

5:37 | influencers are becoming Affiliates it’s definitely cleaning up the the definition of the word yeah and it’s

5:43 | interesting to know too that like when I think about myself as a Creator so like putting the advertising stuff like on

5:49 | the side like many of my first brand deals were affiliate deals so my first

5:56 | brand deal this is good knowledge for like the channel to have actually is was an affiliate deal with Snapchat so what

6:02 | Snapchat would actually provide and this was like four or five years ago they if someone signed up with my link they

6:08 | would get like $1,000 in ad credits as long as they spent like a thousand so

6:14 | it’s like they get essentially double like to try out the to try out Snapchat ads and every time someone would

6:21 | actually spend and then spend those credits then I would get a certain percentage point and it was for me as a

6:28 | creator I was actually I actually loved that deal because it showed me how effective it was and honestly like as

6:36 | long as those videos kept performing well and people kept on clicking on those links which they did because the offer was amazing then I was getting you

6:44 | know anywhere between $3,000 and $5,000 per month you know from this affiliate

6:50 | deal CU I think sometimes influencers and even brands are a little suspicious

6:56 | on an affiliate structure cuz they’re like oh is it really going to incentivize them that much or do they

7:01 | like do influencers or creators just want the big payout it’s great for what we call the high converters which is

7:06 | what you were for the Snapchat like influencers that can actually drive whatever the goal is in this case

7:12 | Snapchat ad signups or you know conversions for a d Toc store they know they can and they want an affiliate deal

7:17 | or at least a hybrid deal where there’s some sort of affiliate component because then it’s not just paying getting paid

7:23 | up one fee up front for a certain amount of durables like they could drive way more value to the brand and also earn

7:28 | way more and they know that so it’s great for those types of influencers and I think the influencers that have never

7:33 | been able to drive anything meaningful are kind of getting exposed now which is I guess you could argue the downside but

7:39 | not necessarily for the brands yeah but I think it’s it’s really good for Brands because I think we’re going to see a lot

7:44 | less of those like really really big like initial sponsorship packages but I

7:50 | think the sweet spot is in a combination you know you do sort of like an initial fee for the content and then if if

7:57 | you’re baking in affiliate marketing every single like influencer deal like that’s what I’m seeing as like the new

8:03 | best practice yeah and it it aligns incentives because that same influencer might you know if it was just a flat

8:08 | feed deal they probably wouldn’t do anything more than the exact deliverables that you were paying them for but if there’s an affiliate

8:13 | component then they might make an extra post or put up an extra Instagram story or post on a different Channel just to

8:18 | drive a little bit more Revenue because they have a selfish incentive to do so so it really works great on both you

8:24 | know for both parties so what industries would you say are really ripe for

8:29 | affiliate marketing especially when we think of like our dtoc audience it’s a good question I mean I wish I had like a

8:36 | a really concise answer for that I mean at Social snowball we have about 2,500 Brands uh on the platform right now and

8:43 | that that ranges across every category even categories I would have never even thought existed before starting this

8:48 | business um I would say if I had to you know pick a trend I would say health and wellness Brands usually do really well

8:53 | yeah I could see that yeah and that ranges from you know low ticket like you know supplements to high ticket like

8:58 | saunas like anything health and wellness people are always sharing their health and wellness Journey online so that that

9:04 | usually does well uh beauty also does really well I think Beauty and Fashion Everyone is always sharing what their

9:09 | you know the beauty products they’re using or what they’re wearing but I mean we’ve had chemical supply companies that

9:14 | did really high affiliate Revenue I think if there’s ever a brand there’s someone online talking about that

9:20 | category whether that’s you know fishing or just really anything there’s always

9:26 | yeah there you go there’s there’s someone there’s an influencer for every Niche and so if you know if a brand can

9:31 | find that influencer hopefully that influencer could be a great affiliate yeah I’d actually love to dig into some

9:37 | of the like affiliate structures that you’ve seen really work and I know that you mentioned oh health and wellness is

9:43 | like an an an industry that works really well and you and I discussed the pod company earlier and like how they were

9:50 | able to really see a lot of growth from Affiliates so I want you to dive into

9:55 | that a little bit and like what their partnership structure looked like cuz I think that’s like really what is going

10:00 | to seal the deal for Brands and like what those results were so the strategy that the pod company does a really good

10:06 | job on and this is something that I think every DDC brand should be doing because it’s very low hanging fruit and that’s turning customers into Affiliates

10:13 | um I think a lot of Brands they will treat their customers like they’re not treating their customers the same way

10:18 | they’re treating influencer Partners they might have them in like some sort of refer a friend loyalty program where ambassador program is like barely like

10:25 | Ambassador would be like I I would I wouldn’t even call it that it’s more like a loyalty program because it’s like maybe you could refer a friend and get a

10:31 | coupon off your next order but if you refer a bunch of friends then you just have a bunch of coupons which kind of become meaningless it doesn’t really

10:36 | incentivize you know them to go out and share that much whereas Affiliates you know influencers you know if you’re

10:42 | paying them as Affiliates they’re earning cash and maybe there’s a tiered incentive structure along with that and that obviously is a much greater

10:48 | incentive so turning customers into Affiliates and actually treating them as Affiliates goes a long way and so the

10:53 | pod company does a great job at this they are so a few things one every time a customer purchases their Crea an

10:59 | affiliate link for them giving that to the customer on the order automatically this is what social snowball helps

11:04 | brands do so we we give you the tech to essentially build a program like this but it’ll give an affiliate Linker code to every customer right on the thank you

11:10 | page as well as in the postp purchase emails through clavo Etc so every customer already has a link to share

11:16 | when a customer does share the pod company is rewarding them in cash for and I don’t remember what the exact

11:21 | commission amount is but you know I’m I’m assuming they have a higher aov considering they sell ice bath so they could probably afford to give a more

11:27 | generous commission so if the is making let’s say even 20 30 bucks cash every referral that’s pretty meaningful like

11:34 | that’s you know not nothing and so that’s one thing they’re doing they’re also kind of just getting more creative

11:39 | with how to keep their customers engaged in the program so they’ll do a giveaway uh like a monthly giveaway for every

11:45 | customer that refers at least one sale in a 30-day period gets entered into giveaway to win either a free ice bath

11:52 | or a free sauna something like that maybe they change the price every month so every customer that hasn’t referred during you know a 30-day window is

11:59 | motivated to make an extra referral because they want to get entered into the giveaway so it’s it’s kind of like a affiliate retention play to keep

12:05 | everyone engaged more longterm and also to remind them like hey you’re an affiliate you want to refer this to someone send it in like a text message

12:12 | like put it on your Instagram stories whatever exactly I think creative retention or just affiliate retention in general is like overlooked and a lot

12:19 | more and a lot more difficult or not difficult but just more overlooked than acquiring Affiliates so yeah they do

12:26 | giveaways and they essentially will send email campaigns to all their customer saying hey as a reminder here’s your

12:31 | referral link every time a friend buys not only will you make 20 bucks or whatever it is I don’t remember exactly but will also enter you to win you know

12:38 | free SA or something like that and that really keeps customers engaged um and then they’re also they’ve trained their

12:44 | this is this is a strategy too I think a lot of brands should be doing they’ve trained their customer service team to

12:49 | basically plug the referral program at the end of every positive customer conversation so you know and the Pod

12:56 | company’s pretty big so I’m sure they’re getting tons of inbound customer TI where’s my order whatever um and essentially they created a macro and

13:02 | gorgeous or whatever customer health desk tool they’re using where after a customer writes in and is like whatever

13:08 | where’s my order and then the Reps you know solves their problem and when they’re signing off in that conversation they’ll send something like hey as a

13:14 | reminder here’s your referral link that we already created for you every time someone buys from this we’ll send you

13:19 | you know whatever $20 and they you know they get a few hundred tickets a day that’s a few hundred additional touch

13:24 | points for their customers where their customers are happy and they’re reminding them about the referral program and I think the brands that are

13:30 | really taking this approach to maximize the amount of touch points they have well really taking every touch point

13:36 | they have with their customer and using that as an opportunity to remind them about the program are the ones that are seeing a lot of revenue from it so

13:44 | that’s that’s one program I think every brand should be doing some of these programs where you’re managing lots of creators it takes a little bit more just

13:49 | bandwidth from your team to have a program at scale but turning customers into Affiliates is very low lift and I’d

13:56 | say too I love that strategy for new Brands right like I think you know

14:01 | especially in the early days like your customers and that are giving you that like check mark of legitimacy or like

14:08 | really sharing how much they loved like your product or service like they’re going to be your best advertising like

14:14 | that you can have and like that’s going to go a long way for new businesses but

14:19 | I also think you know brands that are like building up that I really like how the Pod like the pod company is doing

14:25 | that would you like how does that attribution look like like you know is

14:30 | it like oh it has to be like the first time someone’s discovered or clicked or

14:35 | like is it like multi-touch attribution for Affiliates like you know what does that look like it’s a good question I

14:41 | mean there’s a lot of different ways you could configure it um I think the most common ones are like code usage so a code being used that check out or like a

14:47 | UTM link with a cookie that could have any attribution window 30 days or whatever um we have some other fancier

14:52 | attribution tools I think one the the most popular way to track these sales is usually with a code because with a

14:58 | discount it’s the only attribution method that has an incentive for the customer to help you track their sale

15:04 | because if they see the discount on their phone from a Creator let’s say and then they buy later on their laptop they’ll probably take that code and use

15:10 | it on their laptop because they want the discount which is the only way to have like platform to platform attribution for something like this but the problem

15:16 | with that is that the codes will often leak and I’m sure some of the people listening have dealt with codes leaking

15:22 | to Honey um Capital One Shopping Retail Me Not and it’s a huge pain but it becomes a way bigger pain when the Cod

15:29 | that leaks is an Affiliates code because not only are you giving out discounts to customers who weren’t supposed to get

15:34 | that discount but then when it’s an Affiliates code you’re also paying a commission to an affiliate that never referred that

15:40 | sale hijacking contribution right it’s a disaster it’s it’s honestly a disaster

15:46 | so we built this Tool uh and we launched like this like two years ago called safe links which is essentially a you could

15:53 | think of A Safe Link like a coupon code alternative it’s a mechanism that allows an affiliate to share a discount to

15:58 | Their audience with without the risk of a code leaking to any of these sites and so essentially Affiliates just share

16:03 | this link instead of a code and it looks just like a normal affiliate link so it would be like use my link for 10% off instead of using my code for 10% off but

16:10 | how it works is whenever a shopper clicks on that link and gets taken to the brand storefront in real time a

16:16 | unique single use code will be generated from Shopify and given to the Shopper to use dur their shopping session so if I’m

16:21 | an influencer and I’m like use my link for 10% off and 100 people click on my link all of those 100 people will all get the same discount but everyone’s

16:27 | code will be unique and they’ll all be single use codes so if honey or capital and shopping were to scrape any of those discounts and leak them doesn’t matter

16:34 | they’re completely valueless to the coupon sites and the influencer still has a way to share a discount the customers all still get a discount it

16:40 | could still you know you still find the discount on your phone and shop later on your laptop and so that’s kind of been like one of the biggest attribution

16:46 | unlocks that we’ve had at Social snowball is like how to accurately track sales with a discount without the risk

16:52 | of these coupon sites hijacking it and so that’s that’s probably like the the way I would recommend doing attribution

16:58 | for a program like that okay that’s that’s really interesting and I that’s why I love the safe links feature

17:03 | because like I said earlier like I’ve had um Affiliates like if they saw their

17:08 | paid ad would like comment their like affiliate like their affiliate code and like it’s been messy and it’s not always

17:16 | Bad actors like sometimes they’re trying to do it but sometimes honey just like scrapes it I don’t even know how they do it but they’re on everyone’s checkout

17:22 | like monitoring codes so they’ll just scrape it automatically yeah it’s wild um so I want to go into like how a brand

17:30 | should begin thinking about affiliate marketing because I’m in the process right now of onboarding a new client for

17:36 | my consultancy practice and one of the big things they told me when I first

17:41 | started auditing them was hey we actually think that Affiliates are one of our biggest potentials for 2025 so

17:49 | how would you look at evaluating a brand for hey like how much potential impact

17:56 | could Affiliates have on their business like what what type of partnership structure should they look into like

18:01 | where would you say a brand should really start well I mean I think you know if you’re evaluating affiliate

18:07 | would be a good fit for them I and you know social affiliate in particular creators I would look at you know some maybe a social listening tool to see how

18:14 | many mentions they’re already getting um do they get inbound interest from creators already I mean brands that are

18:19 | at any scale usually have on their social media Pages or maybe on a form in their website or just their customer service email there’s influencers that

18:25 | are reaching out that are interested in a partnership even if a paid partnership there’s Creator interest that’s usually a good sign um and even if there’s not

18:33 | like even if they just have a post-p purchase survey and the customers are saying they came from word of mouth or from a friend or they saw a post about

18:39 | it like that’s enough of a signal that this is something you should one be tracking accurately you need attribution

18:45 | for something that’s already happening and two you should probably be pouring fuel on this already burning fire it’s a very you know affiliate is great because

18:51 | it’s acquiring customers at any CAC you want like you set your own CAC it’s like the progressive Name Your Price tool

18:57 | from the old commercials like you literally choose the customer acquisition cost you’re paying it’s not variable like meta um and then as far as

19:04 | like where they should start I think turning customers into Affiliates would be a great one it’s very hanging fruit it’s very set it and forget it um you

19:11 | build out the incentive structure you put the thank you page widget you integrate it with your clavo postp purchase flow sign up with social

19:18 | snowball obviously and then it runs um but beyond that like I think you know as far as capturing or as far as building a

19:25 | successful Creator program as Affiliates um there’s a few things you would you you would do one is you’d want to

19:30 | capture the inbound Creator demand that you already have so you’d want to build an application form you could do this in

19:35 | Social snowball as well but you’d want some sort of form in the footer navigation or header navigation of your website where creators can apply to work

19:41 | with you every time someone messages customer support uh DMS you on Instagram or is just on your website and is

19:47 | interested in partnering with you they could fill out that form and then you have at least some sort of system to organize that and approve the people

19:52 | that you want to work with um and then the second thing you’ll want to do is Outreach to creators as well so

19:59 | um you know similar to like how basically any company or B2B company does outreach to find clients like d Toc

20:05 | companies should be doing Outreach to find creators and you could use email automation tools um you know social

20:10 | snobble has some tools to help you find creators but you essentially want to be finding creators that are relevant to

20:16 | your brand and doing email Outreach to them like setting up sequences and follow-ups so that you know you could

20:21 | basically explain what your product is um offer to send them one for free I think the way to make it work as you want it to be as no strings attached as

20:29 | possible you want to just basically say hey I like your content I think you like our product here’s what it is um we’d

20:35 | love to send you one that’s it like if you start asking for deliverables and you start sending them a brief like

20:40 | complicated because they’re getting hit up all the time like there’s a lot of demand for creators and if you want to win them over you need to be as easy to

20:48 | work with as possible like the less amount of friction the better yeah and then once they have your product and they like it then you could send them

20:54 | another email saying like hey how’s it going so far like eventually you could ask them to post and then you could you know of course they’ll be in your

20:59 | affiliate program you could you know have a whole incentive structure for them to create more posts and drive more Revenue eventually but to just get them

21:05 | in the door you want to make that as easy easy easy as possible um so those would be the two types of structures I

21:11 | would set up and that’s just as far as acquiring new Affiliates you want to be capturing in inbound demand and you want

21:17 | to be creating demand through outbound but as far as the incentive structures I mean that’s a whole another conversation

21:22 | yeah yeah I bet um are there certain like percentage points incentive structures that you do find to be like

21:29 | the most like the the ones that like attract creators the best or I would say

21:34 | like a lot of Brands make the mistake of giving too low of a commission yeah like 5% it’s like who gives a [ __ ] yeah

21:41 | because they’re like oh I could choose what I pay to acquire a customer like great let’s do 5% but the truth is like

21:47 | you don’t just want the highest Roi possible you want the highest percentage of gmv possible with a with a profitable

21:54 | Roi Define gmv like total revenue you want the you want a the affiliate Revenue as a percentage of total revenue

22:00 | to be a large number with a profitable Roi so what I mean by that is if you set a 5% commission let’s say you are able

22:07 | to generate a 30X Roi like row as equivalent which sounds great but if a 5% commission is only generating you one

22:14 | referral per month then that program is not moving the needle but if you set like a 30% commission and that’s a 3X

22:20 | Roi but that 30% commission motivates way more influencers and now it’s generating 15 20% of your total revenue

22:28 | then all of a sudden this program has actually changed your whole business because 20% of your new customer acquisition is coming in at a customer

22:33 | acquisition cost that will not FL fluctuate with the elections or just CPM movement in general that is just doing

22:39 | magic to your Blended customer acquisition costs in general and so I think that’s a mistake Brands make is

22:45 | like going too low on the commissions optimizing for Roi over per of gmv and then basically they have a program that

22:51 | if you just look at the ROI it looks great but if you look at the ACT you know actual impact it’s having on the business it’s not moving any needles

22:57 | whereas if you were just give a big a higher commission it could so I think the rule of commissions is like you want to Benchmark it against your paid ads

23:04 | CAC um if your paid ads CAC is you know 50% of your aov then that could be a

23:10 | starting point and you could also just it doesn’t have to be exactly what your paid ads CAC is it could be what you want your paid ads cack to be it could

23:16 | be like a target for your paid ads cack so you could have you know you can make it so that you’re acquiring customers

23:21 | consistently through affiliate at a cheaper you know cheaper than you are through paid ads but if you have it be

23:28 | one tenth of what you’re paying for paid ad to acquire three paid ads and it’s probably not going to get the engagement

23:33 | that it could yeah cuz I’d say even when looking at some of the affiliate deals I’ve had in the past as a Creator like

23:39 | the ones that are like 10% I’m like yeah I’m never going to like make an Instagram story for this but there are a few that like I’ve had in the past that

23:45 | are like oh it’s like 50% and I’m like I’m going to drop that like once a week like you know a few times a week and I

23:51 | also think like paying creators a flat fee usually does like a flat fee per conversion so it’s like $10 per

23:59 | usually just because EAS to do math um right CU they’re like oh if like five

24:05 | people sign up then it’s like 50 bucks the story yeah right because if it’s a percentage then it’s like there’s all these other factors of like well what’s

24:11 | the purchase value going to be it’s going to be different for everyone well some of the products are not as expensive as others and there’s upsells

24:16 | and there’s just a lot of thinking to do and even sometimes a percentage could be a better incentive for the Creator but

24:22 | just the fact that a flat Fe commission is easier for them to wrap their head around and easier for them to do mental

24:27 | math on predicting what they could earn just for that reason alone I’ve seen that do really well yeah and actually

24:32 | like when I think back to the Snapchat deal that I had that was like flat fee yeah like even though it’s like I know

24:38 | some Brands spent like hundreds of thousands of dollars to that link but it’s like the fact that I get like $200

24:44 | even if you just spend 2,000 like that’s fine for me that checks the box is it worth it and the mental math is easy so

24:51 | yeah I think that’s like a pretty good ground rule General especially for customer Affiliates cuz consumers you obviously want to make things as easy as

24:57 | possible if I mean if you look at everything everything in your consumer flow from you know ads to your landing

25:02 | page to your checkout Etc everything is just simplified you want the incentive structure to be simplified you want the

25:08 | process of turning them into an affiliate post purchase to be simplified you need to kind of approach that as you’re approaching every other part of

25:14 | the consumer journey and it’s not that like one size has to fit all right like if you have like a super affiliate and

25:19 | they want like a percentage structure like something like that is possible right of course of course yeah I mean in social snowball like the whole our

25:26 | software is built around being able to create different programs and the different program is essentially a group of Affiliates that all have the same

25:32 | commission structure discount structure gifting structure product exclusion structure Etc so like you could create

25:38 | different buckets of Affiliates one could be like VIP creators where you’re giving higher commission one could be like micro influencers and other could

25:43 | be your customers that are that makes a lot of sense yeah cuz the brand that I work with right now we have a VIP like

25:50 | customer like we have like a VIP um like affiliate structure and we also have like ones that we give out to a normal

25:56 | influencer just like our influencer pool and then like customers so yeah that’s

26:02 | um that’s something that I’ve seen work really really well for Brands um I want to change gears a little bit and like

26:08 | have you give like five expert tips for like anyone starting up and like for

26:15 | anyone starting up with Affiliates or like when considering Affiliates okay well the first one you should be turning

26:21 | your customers into Affiliates make the process for them to become Affiliates as frictionless as possible if they have to

26:26 | jump through hoops after they make a purchase and go back to your website and look for a link in your footer navigation and fill out an application

26:31 | form and wait for an approval like you can’t expect a customer that just went through your like two click check out Flawless landing page experience and

26:38 | then all of a sudden jump through hoops to become an advocate you have to make it Flawless and I think too it’s like a lot of times I see like refer a friend

26:44 | like all the way at the bottom of the website like and it’s like who’s clicking on that right you know you just got to make it easy like think of how

26:51 | easy it is for a customer to like see your ad click on it go through the landing page you know pick the offer

26:56 | they want purchase are like that that’s the funnel right that’s like the the marketing funnel and the bottom of that

27:02 | funnel in and basically you know is is universally accepted as advocacy but why

27:08 | do we not reduce friction in advocacy the way that we do for the rest of the funnel is kind of just something to think about so that would be one make

27:15 | sure you’re tur your customers into Affiliates two I think emails are really important Brands usually don’t send enough emails to their creators this is

27:21 | another great way to keep creators engaged long term is to be just constantly sending them updates here as an a creator that earned you know

27:28 | $20,000 last month and here’s what they did here’s uh videos that have been performing really well um you know black

27:33 | Friday’s coming up here’s the commit we’re going to give you a special commission rate during this period just anything you could do to remind engage

27:41 | uh creators about your program to create any sort of like temporary campaign for them to earn a higher commission just

27:46 | things to just emails that you could send to keep them engaged whether that’s a welcome flow explaining how the program works or just more like even the

27:53 | giveaways that that that pod company does that we’re talking about things like that go a long way um okay let’s

27:59 | see what else third I would say tiar tear out your uh incentive structure okay this is honestly really important

28:05 | and pod company does this as well where essentially as you refer more Revenue

28:11 | you’re able to unlock new rewards and we make this really easy to basically automate in Social snowball where you could set milestones and then tie

28:17 | rewards to each Milestone but for example you could make a be so that like and this could be for customer or or

28:22 | Creator really any affiliate when you refer 10 sales you unlock a new gift when you refer

28:29 | uniss whener sales you unlock an even cooler an even higher commission and

28:34 | then when you enroll new creators they kind of presented this tier structure up front so in the welcome email they could

28:39 | see the different Milestones they have to hit they could see what they unlock at each Milestone and then as they’re getting close to each new tier you could

28:46 | trigger an email that says like hey you only have three more referrals until you unlock you know the silver tier which is

28:51 | going to give you this gift and this commission just little things like that to keep them engaged um go a long way and tearing it out really helps again

28:57 | creator retention like affiliate engagement keeping people in the program

29:02 | engaged long term rather than just like one post then then forgetting about it number four I’m going to have to say it

29:08 | again is you want to make sure your codes aren’t leing to coupon sites like that will destroy your program we’ve

29:13 | worked with a lot of like multi- n fig brands that came to social snowball because they’ve dealt with code leaks

29:18 | and a brand at that scale when an affiliate code leaks to a coupon site if they go even a week without catching it it could be really severe losses um I

29:26 | mean the amount of people that have honey installed in their browser that use Capital One shopping retail not Etc like they will see a code they’ll use it

29:33 | and they won’t even realize that an affiliate’s getting attribution for this and that commissions are getting paid out like it could really be devastating

29:39 | to the program so using safe links to prevent that it would be the next tip um

29:44 | and then I guess for the last one I think brand should really be focusing on Tik Tok shop now I think this is like a

29:49 | really exciting new channel um you know we love Tik Tok shop at Social snowball because before Tik Tok shop you know 5

29:57 | years ago when I started this business I was kind of like the the crazy founder saying oh influencers are a performance

30:03 | Channel creators can be great Affiliates and then you know obviously some Brands agreed with that and and we had traction

30:09 | but it wasn’t like the norm and now with Tik Tock shop being a thing and Tik Tok shop is essentially a Creator platform

30:15 | that is only affiliate there’s not even an option to pay a Creator a flat fee through Tik Tok shop it’s just affiliate

30:21 | so that’s been great for us like selfishly we love Tik Tok shop because well now we’re integrated with them but even before that it kind of just helped

30:27 | the market move in the direction of Creator is a performance Channel but we’ve seen Brands just do incredible at

30:33 | Tik Tok shop so I think brands should be focused on Tik Tok shop they should be launching on Tik Tok shop all different

30:38 | categories now I’m seeing doing well it’s not just like the gimmicky products anymore what about like aovs that are working on Tik Tok shop I still think in

30:46 | general it’s the lower aovs but I’ve been I feel like I’ve been seeing more and more exceptions to that I think Tik

30:51 | Tok is making a huge push to make it a shopping platform for all aovs um yeah

30:56 | it’s the QVC gen yeah so we’ll see like what happens over the next few years but

31:02 | I’ve seen Brands just make a killing on there so what is your integration then looked like with Tik Tok shop like how

31:08 | are you like how is social snowball like helping Brands like make the most out of that platform yeah great question so

31:14 | there’s a few different things I’d say the the bigger picture is we essentially help you connect your D Toc affiliate

31:20 | program to your Tik Tok shop affiliate program and the reason that’s so important is like think about it like this every Creator these days basically

31:27 | you know they have a Tik Tok and an Instagram following right that’s super common or maybe Tik Tok I have that it’s like I have like Tik Tok YouTube

31:33 | Instagram and like kind of they’re like all pretty different to because yeah they they are and so when a brand is

31:39 | partnering with a Creator and that creator has a following on Instagram and Tik Tok just for that one partnership

31:45 | with one brand that Creator is going to have to sign up through Tik Tok shop to be in the brand in the Brand’s Tik Tok shop collaboration and then through an

31:51 | affiliate platform to be in their D Toc collaboration to drive revenue from Instagram so for that one Creator to

31:57 | manage one partnership with one brand they already have to use two different platforms and that one creator has Partnerships with many Brands and that

32:02 | brand has Partnerships with many creators that have you know multiple channels and multiple followings so it’s

32:07 | just very distributed and like there’s before our integration there was no real easy way to kind of unify that and to be

32:13 | able to have your relationships across DTC and Tik Tok shop in one place and that’s exactly what it does so we

32:20 | integrate with Tik Tock shop and we’re able to basically pull your Tik Tok shop affiliate data into one affiliate

32:26 | profile as well as the Affiliates D Toc referral data so if they’re posting on Instagram of course we’re saving that Instagram post we’re showing you the

32:32 | revenue it’s driving and then if they’re posting on Tik Tok shop we’re also saving that Tik Tock Shop video and showing you the revenue they’re driving

32:38 | through Tik Tok shop so you open up Social snowball and you click on one Affiliates profile that you’re working with and you can see all their D Toc

32:44 | Revenue that they drove you could see their Tik Tok shop Revenue you could see their Instagram post you could see their Tik Tok Shop shoppable videos and just

32:50 | kind of have all of that be unified in in one place um for both the brands and the creators so the creators when they log into their social snowball portal

32:56 | they could also see all that data as um so that would be like that’s kind

33:02 | of like the high level of it like it’s basically just kind of unifying and sying those platforms together we also

33:07 | have some Cool Tools like you know for Brands we save all their shoppable videos into a media library so you know

33:13 | s similar to how we do with Instagram like it just kind of puts all of their um you know influencers posts in one

33:18 | place and now that includes Tik Tok foreplay for like a yeah sorry Zach exactly I think Z Zach

33:25 | will love the shout out yeah um and also we make it you know I we were talking about tiers and how you could like set

33:30 | Milestones so what we’re building now and about to release is like the ability to set tiers that also apply for Tik Tok

33:37 | shops so it could basically be when an affiliate has generated $110,000 in Revenue Blended between the D Toc and

33:45 | Tik Tok shop so if they Dr posted on Instagram and Tik Tok and it was $5,000 on each Channel that’s just you know

33:50 | $10,000 Blended then it could unlock a high Commission on DDC it could you know uh create a Target collab on Tik Tok

33:56 | shop for H they could send them a new gift basically having all of the data unified not only gives you better reporting but

34:03 | makes lets you make better decisions and kind of automate these these tiers and

34:08 | and find your best creators and give them better rewards yeah I think too it kind of like it formulates not only for

34:15 | the brand but also for the Creator like like their experience on the platform

34:20 | you know like sometimes like when brands are talking about Tik Tok shops or Affiliates versus organic versus like

34:27 | paid it’s it’s like from the Creator perspective it’s all actually kind of the same thing and like I feel like this

34:33 | like what like social snowball does it like centralizes that data exactly exactly now I want to switch gears a

34:40 | little bit and like talk more on the like influencer side and like the influencer management of like what you

34:46 | do cuz not many people know this but when I actually started my career um when I moved back to New York and like

34:52 | got my first like PR job which I was like fired from after just 3 months I was very

35:00 | but um it was so interesting cuz like back then like this was like eight years ago influencer was not as much of a

35:07 | thing and I was mostly managing press relationships press relationships in a spreadsheet and like an Excel sheet yeah

35:15 | so from what I understand you guys also have a like influencer tracking system

35:20 | too on social Snowball right that makes that like a lot easier like the spreadsheet hell like doesn’t exist I

35:27 | mean I would say entire tool is basically a spreadsheet replacement like everything from organizing your influencer relationships to the

35:33 | attribution and the payments like everything we’ve had a we you’d be surprised how many Brands like

35:38 | considerably large Brands come to social snowball that were not using a different affiliate platform before they were

35:44 | literally just using a spreadsheet a spreadsheet or like they have tons of different like affiliate programs right

35:49 | they have like a like a shop my an ltk like it’s all like you know yeah yeah so

35:55 | yeah I mean I think like every time I the rule I always tell myself is every time I find myself using a spreadsheet

36:01 | to do a task that I’m doing frequently There’s an opportunity for software to be built I think that’s a ground rule um

36:07 | and social snowball definitely checks that box yeah that’s awesome um now

36:13 | another brand that you and I were talking about before um that like you saw really great results from was divy

36:18 | and actually I just did like a deep dive on their ad creative recently so I feel like it’s really top of mine for me but

36:24 | um how was like divy able to unlock more traction from using Affiliates so they

36:31 | do a lot of Creator Outreach something we talked about before okay so the spreadsheets which what I was doing when

36:37 | I was doing my press Outreach like this is something that they’re really like utilizing and leaning into yeah so they

36:43 | are sending out I mean I couldn’t tell you exactly how much but you know thousands of emails per month I would

36:48 | imagine I I don’t know for sure but I would imagine in that range um basically gifting their product to influencers and

36:55 | then influencers that are interested will receive it and then ened into AED AED incentive structure soy does a

37:01 | really good job with their as well they have really good emails um maybe we could pop those up on the screen but

37:06 | essentially they’re able to you know they have like four or five different tiers where as Affiliates drive more

37:11 | Revenue they unlock higher rewards higher commissions yeah um and every creator that replies that they’re interested to receive a gift gets

37:17 | enrolled into those email sequences they get access to a social snowball portal they get to you know see all the content

37:23 | that they post they get their affiliate link they get to redeem their gift from the social Sall portal so so everything’s kind of all there in one

37:29 | place and yeah that’s basically the majority of their strategies a lot of Outreach and they are an influencer

37:35 | owned brand so I’m sure they’re getting a good amount of inbound as well I don’t know exactly but I would imagine as an

37:40 | influencer owned brand and they’re also in Ulta and like some bigger stores so I’m sure at their scale they’re getting

37:46 | a good amount of Interest inbound but I know they’re sending a lot of outbound how can Brands potentially get more of

37:51 | that inbound interest like what do you think like allows divy to be like a

37:56 | brand where people where like people want to be Affiliates I think for any brand the way that you make that happen

38:03 | is by kind of forcing it to happen in the beginning like you need to get over

38:08 | the cold start of working with influencers and then once you start working with influencers other influencers see those influencers and

38:14 | they’re like oh I also want to partner with this brand I think that’s like one of especially with Tik Tok shop that’s one of the biggest challenges Brands

38:20 | faces they can’t get their initial like 20 influencers because those influencers are like oh well you haven’t worked with

38:25 | other influencers you haven’t driven that much revenue Tok but it applies for any influencer program through DC as

38:31 | well um influencers like working with brands that are working with influencers but you need to get the first few

38:37 | influencers so I think some brands are like maybe for the first 20 influencers they work with they’ll pay them a flat

38:42 | fee just to kind of get the the ball rolling oh that’s smart so like when people are starting up they’ll like essentially do like maybe even a higher

38:49 | like like a higher like incentive exactly just to get the first however many influencers posting because then

38:54 | once other influencers see that they’re like oh other influencers are working with this brand I I should be working with this brand creates almost fomo and

39:02 | um that’s really the only way to generate more inbound demand I think once you have a brand that a lot of influencers influencers are working with

39:08 | the snowball no pun intended just kind of rolls on its own okay is that where you got the name from then kind of I

39:13 | mean I got the name sitting in my bed with a Google doc just like coming up with random ideas until one made sense

39:19 | and there was a domain available but that was kind of the thinking yeah and you said that you started 5 years ago right so like five years ago I feel like

39:26 | was like right before the like paid social like Bubble Burst like what made

39:32 | you want to focus on this problem and like Affiliates as opposed to like

39:38 | candidly just becoming like another like d toy paid social guy well I kind of was before like I I was I I don’t even know

39:45 | if you knew this but I was media buying before okay I was like in that world and I was doing consulting for some Brands

39:51 | and I was like building some of my own stores and I was I was messing around with the stuff as earlier as early as like high school um so this was kind of

39:58 | just like a world I got sucked into and essentially the you know the way the idea for social snowball started is

40:03 | because I and any brand I would work with I was trying to partner with Instagram influencers and just small

40:09 | micro ambassadors um and I wanted to be able to incentivize them to drive Revenue yeah and I wanted to be able to

40:16 | track that revenue and reward them for doing so and the only options that I had you know as far as a platform that could

40:22 | enable that was either these more traditional Legacy affiliate platforms that were built for like Publishers and

40:27 | if you tried to onboard an Instagram influencer into a platform like that it was just like share my sale or

40:32 | something it’s a nightmare it’s a nightmare it just doesn’t work it’s not realistic those platforms are not meant

40:37 | for influencers um and so that was one option and that didn’t work and then the only alternative is like there were

40:43 | these influencer management crms that essentially allowed you to build a partnership with an influencer where you

40:49 | could create these campaigns and these platforms are still pretty big I’m sure you’ve seen some but you could pay influencers in in this campaign you

40:56 | could pay an influenc a flaffy and then reive deliverables in return but there is basically no affiliate functionality

41:02 | in that whatsoever so I realized that you know if I wanted to partner with influencers and I wanted the goal of

41:07 | that partnership to be attributable Revenue there was essentially no platform that was built for that use case specifically and that’s kind of how

41:13 | the idea started okay okay yeah I didn’t know that you were a media buyer before I mean that’s like a that’s a generous

41:19 | title like I was I was dabbling for sure but I wasn’t I wasn’t as tapped in as you at any point so oh my goodness yeah

41:25 | I mean I media buying for me was like the perfect like entry point which is why like I

41:33 | really get excited when I see people like still wanting to make that as their career but I feel like it’s it’s not

41:38 | like the it’s it’s not the ending point for people like you’re either going to spiral off into something else like I

41:45 | decided to go down more of like the the ad creative route and like I think it’s really interesting though that you sort of went the more organic route and to

41:52 | turn how can you turn influencer then into more of this performance Channel yeah yeah um so but wait you said you

42:01 | were doing media buying when you were like almost a teenager um so when I when I was just

42:07 | graduating high school like that summer after I graduated really um I is when I discovered the world world of Drop

42:12 | Shipping and was like oh my God there’s a way to make money online cuz I was working on a fishing boat at the time and that was like it was a summer job in

42:19 | New Jersey oh right right yeah um and it was just like you know you need to make money you need to work a job like I was

42:25 | just not really thinking there’s any other way so then I discovered Drop Shipping and I was like oh this is really cool and I didn’t even know about

42:31 | paid ads until like a year later because I was just basically trying to build a store that was selling women’s clothing

42:37 | and I was just posting on Instagram and or all organic and that was like the first ever Venture into like digital

42:44 | marketing I guess then I started to get more into paid ads once I discovered it and then realized that oh paid ads are like really powerful and that’s when I

42:50 | started to do more like Consulting paid ads Etc and that’s kind of how I got into the whole world yeah do you find

42:56 | that a lot of people now or a lot of Brands like if they sign someone up to like become an affiliate and they like

43:03 | end up making content from that they’ll like then like shift that to paid ads yes absolutely I think there are so many

43:10 | there are so many um I don’t even know what the best way to word this would be there’s so many side effects from an

43:18 | influencer affiliate program that have so many great benefits that is really important and and here’s a good way to

43:23 | frame it like if you partner with influencers and you partner with with them in the way that we’ve been talking about where it’s an affiliate model and

43:29 | the goal is revenue and they’re getting rewarded for Revenue as a side effect you’ll get all this great content that you could get us to dads from and using

43:35 | paid ads Etc but if you do it the reverse and more the oldfashioned way where you are only partnering with

43:41 | influencers where the goal is getting this content like how it used kind of used to be you don’t get attributable

43:48 | Revenue as like a side effect because you’re not incentivizing it or tracking it so if if even if you did even if

43:55 | content was a huge Focus for you for your influencer partners Ship by Shifting the the the main goal of the partnership and the incentive structure

44:01 | around Revenue rather than just content deliverables you still get the content deliverables plus attributable Revenue

44:08 | plus a longer term partnership it checks all the boxes so I think it’s just such a more such a just much more effective

44:14 | way to partner with influencers for so many reasons yeah what would you say like what are some of the things that

44:20 | you notice big Brands like missing out on in terms of like their affiliate

44:25 | programs like do you think that there are like Stakes that you see big Brands making a lot yeah I mean you’d be

44:30 | shocked with how many Brands even to this day come to us using an affiliate platform bill for Publishers with

44:36 | influencers like they have their influencers on a share sale or something similar oh yeah I mean you’d be shocked

44:41 | and then the amount of brands that are still using static codes instead of safe links because they just don’t know about it I would say the big Brands they’re

44:47 | making the same mistakes as as the smaller Brands they’re just losing a lot more money by doing so MH what is your

44:53 | outlook for 2025 in this space uh um a few things I think the trend that we’ve

44:59 | been seeing where Affiliates are to be an affiliate is more and more de democratized is going to continue so it

45:05 | used to be only big Publishers and then like you know huge influencers and now it’s like micro influencers and even

45:11 | like customer ambassadors I think it’s going to continue and continue being more like that I think brands are going to be more open-minded to compensating

45:17 | their customers as Affiliates because if they could pay a customer to refer a friend less than they’d pay Zuck to run

45:22 | and AD to acquire customer like I think no brand would say no to that um so that trend is going to continue in my opinion

45:28 | for sure and then I think social commerce is going to continue growing and I think it’s more than just Tik Tok shop we’re seeing YouTube shopping roll

45:34 | out now I think that could be huge I I mean it’s so new that I I couldn’t even give you hard data to say that it is

45:40 | huge like or that it works really well but I just I feel like it will be I’ve made some money from YouTube yeah yeah

45:46 | I’ve made some money from YouTube shopping not a t not a ton but you know I’ve linked a few books and people

45:51 | bought the books so I’m like great that’s awesome yeah so I think like you know Tik Tok shop Pro out a concept that

45:58 | no other social media platform could crack but now they all know how to crack it because Tik Tok led a great example

46:03 | and I think you know Commerce happening on social platforms is going to take off for sure I also think like that Tik Tok

46:11 | shop like taught creators how to think like direct response advertisers and I

46:18 | my like personal like conspiracy theory belief is I think that in the next few

46:23 | like years and months we’re going to be able to like much more easily put ad dollarss behind like that content and

46:30 | like that will essentially be how we’re feeling like that affiliate relationship like I think that like this is going to

46:36 | come to meta as well where we can like oh like they’re able to like spin up a

46:41 | Tik Tok shop competitor essentially and if we see like an affiliate we like and like they check the box that says yeah

46:47 | you can put paid ads behind it like brands are going to jump on definitely like I think that that type of affiliate

46:54 | structure also like negates the question of like how to best pay for creators

47:01 | like I know um a conversation that happens a lot um on D Toc Twitter is you

47:06 | know should you pay like how should you incentivize like creative agencies or

47:11 | like creators to work with you like should you do percentage of spend should you do like a flat fee and I think that

47:18 | if you can turn it into more of like a performance model it works for both sides but I think like for the Creator

47:24 | like portion specifically like that affiliate relationship makes a lot of sense and I think some brands are even

47:30 | like if they’re whitelisting a Creator ad they might give the Creator like a much lower commission for the revenue driven through the wh listed creative

47:36 | like I’ve even seen things like that oh so that’s smart so what they would do is they’d be like hey we’re going to put paid ad spend behind this so like good

47:44 | for you but like it’s going to be like a smaller percentage definitely I mean if you’re paying someone 30% you probably

47:49 | and you’re also running a paid ads yeah this very nice of you very expensive very expensive so maybe it’s like 1% or

47:55 | something but it’s still you know more incentive for the Creator to make a video that could be used in ads yeah

48:01 | yeah which like getting that more organic and also just like authentic like perspective I think from the

48:07 | creators is why I’m so interested in Affiliates cuz like they’re not following a creative brief most and

48:14 | that’s also something that’s super important do not give your creators I said I was going to look into the camera

48:20 | do not give your creators that are Affiliates at least a creative brief like for sure don’t because you’re ing

48:26 | them of the creative freedom that they have and they know how they’re going to convert Their audience if you’re paying creators in the oldfashioned way where

48:32 | you’re paying them a flat fee for a deliverable that you plan on running for ads and you need them to say a certain script that’s totally fine but that’s

48:39 | not an affiliate relationship if it is an affiliate relationship you should let them do what they do best and they they

48:45 | know how they’re going to get to Their audience and drive sales so two different goals and I think a lot of

48:50 | brands that a lot of Brands try to give their like Creator Affiliates these like

48:55 | briefs or guidelines that are to strict and you have to just let them do their thing yeah I love that actually cuz like it also for me differentiates how I

49:03 | think about like organic like like organic relationship activations and

49:08 | like versus Affiliates like if you’re giving someone a brief then like you’re going to pay that like higher fee oh

49:14 | yeah candidly like it’s like it’s kind of like it could be viewed as like the same operation but I think it’s very

49:20 | very different and like for Brands to think about influencer Marketing in this

49:25 | way like the ilate relationship versus like the sponsorship like relationship I think can just like it it opens up a lot

49:32 | more opportunities for creators too which you know I have heard a lot more

49:38 | creators being more concerned about like ad dollars and sponsorship money like starting to um you know not be as

49:46 | lucrative as it was the last few years which is why I think like the affiliate structure coming in is like a really

49:53 | great opportunity for people who can sell which isn’t the easiest thing in

49:58 | the world yeah so Noah thank you so so much for joining me today why don’t you

50:03 | give people the Hard Sell on social snowball I think you’ve already done an amazing job and like I’ll obviously have

50:10 | a link here a social snowball link if you guys want to check it out right you got to give me one of those um but yeah

50:17 | give people the Hard Sell yeah I mean I think it’s as simple as you know paid ads are becoming more expensive and less

50:22 | reliable and you need alternative acquisition channels I I don’t think by any means we’re at a place where you

50:28 | should be replacing your paid ads with any other channel I I don’t think that would make sense at all but I think to

50:33 | be able to diversify even 10 to 20% of your new customer acquisition to a channel where you own the relationship

50:40 | you control the CAC it’s it’s just something that you know it can’t be taken from you if if you know CPM Spike

50:46 | whatever it’s something that you own um you know everyone talks about owned um retention channels like your emails Etc

50:52 | but what about owned acquisition channels like there’s very few opportunities to have something like that and creator affiliate relationships are one of those um social snowball is

50:59 | the platform that lets you build out that type of uh you know partnership program Amazing yeah there was a reason

51:05 | why I wanted to have you on especially like towards the end of 2024 when brands are starting to re-evaluate their

51:12 | strategies for the the coming year and what they’re going to do in 2025 and I

51:17 | feel like every year we’re always a little bit more nervous than the year previously about paid social advertising

51:23 | and paid social spend and cpms which is why honestly the more that I develop in

51:29 | my career the more that I look for alternative growth strategies that can help support it which is why affiliate

51:35 | is a huge interest to me because you get that content aspect in it and you really build that relationship with the Creator

51:40 | but isn’t riing completely on The Meta ads Beast so Noah thank you so much for

51:47 | joining me thank you for I know you’re normally based out of LA but you know coming back from Mexico like what a

51:53 | journey you’re awesome um and who knows maybe you’ll sue me in La a little bit more it’s a teaser for my audience so

52:00 | that’d be awesome right all right the end

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